Home PublicationsJRTEPast IssuesVolume 28 Number 5

Edited by Diane McGrath

Volume 28 Number 5 Summer 1996

Multimedia Science Projects: Seven Case Studies, Data Responsibility–Tables

Kansas State University

Responsibility for Own Learning

CC: Interview with Teacher, 4/30

T1: It was obvious that they did not have those skills. I've felt that I've had to drag them through everything, well if we are looking at self-directed learning, it's not there yet. If we completely turn them loose we are going to get nothing.
CC: Uh-hmmm... was is a deficiency in their motivation or was it just that they did not have the skills to do what they... they wanted to do it but they really didn't have the skills to do it.
T1: I don't know, I think it's probably half and half, they don't have the skills, they are not extremely motivated.
...
CC: But you still think that it's better than doing paper reports and things like that?
T1: Yes, I'm convinced that it is, because, you know these are kids who were weaned on Nintendo and a paper and pencil, they are almost foreign objects to them.
CC: Ok, so they want to do in on computer, but most of the time they don't spend enough time on task?
T1: That's correct, and I can't fault them totally, but in a small school every kid is involved in every activity.
CC: That's true.
T1: They just sometimes don't have the time, if they are not that motivated to begin with, they are not going to lock themselves, you know to put in that extra effort. If they are tired, they quit. whereas if the adults are tired, they just keep going on, because they have a task to do.

Teacher Journal

3/3-We spent half the class period planning for next week. The kids are really excited and want to do everything at once - that's only natural. I hope I can keep up with them! I did get back the OK today to go to L__ to the Post Rock Museum next Wednesday.

G2 seems really interested in volunteering to do the extra after-school research at the N__ County Historical Society. G1 is going to the N__ County Library Saturday to look at the old N__ County News copies.

3/10-Spent the class hour doing general planning...After I kept prompting them and throwing our ideas and tidbits they finally during the last 20 minutes of class began to come up with their own ideas.

4/7-AUGHHH...how ARE we going to get this finished???? I told my class about the "good" news and stressed that they were really going to have to work together and communicate through their notebook with their group members. Those who are going to be absent, will have to do the outside-of-class work and those who are here will be doing a lot of computer work...and ABSOLUTELY NO GAME-PLAYING!

4/28-After seeing the progress T2's students were making, I realized that we seriously needed to be altogether and make some group decisions so the project doesn't look like a patch-work piece. I haven't had ALL the students together since April 18 and won't have them all until next Monday...2 weeks without group input is TOO long for this kind of project.

5/14-What a week! We are actually seeing some progress - had a work night on Tuesday and everyone showed up. The project really has started to pull together. I volunteered to babysit for Saturday school today - gave the Biology students a chance to work in the computer room. However, the ones that showed up were almost finished and the ones that didn't show still have the most to do. We have completely finished five of the either stacks. The other three are in their final revision. We need one more segment of video to be shot in N__ illustrating the spring season. G3's stack on trees needs major revision and she's not here - B4 and B2 have graciously consented to edit it. B3 is frantically working on the plants: this is a really large stack. He at least is concerned enough to show up.
Later: B1 did show up, too and helped some. I swore I wasn't going to do this, but I did pitch in and edit too. G3's was in pitiful shape. The boys really struggled with trying to untangle the mess.
12:30 p.m.: I feel so much better. The main driver stack is linked to all eight of the other stacks - and it works!!! The only things left to do are (1) shoot a short video of a spring scene in N__ and capture a still for the "Changes" stack and (2) finish the Works Cited card on the driver stack. WHAT a relief!

5/20-Found out Tuesday that we needed to show this at the Awards Banquet on Thursday... electronic frustrations .... Since this is a pioneering project and everyone is looking at us for the feasibility of introducing HyperCard in the classroom, it had to be good. We did pull it off, but at the expense of a giant stress level....Anyway - it looked great and we received many compliments. The students are extremely proud of it and for good reason.

Student Journals

B2: [NOTE: This journal is given in its entirety to show progress, changes.]
3/7-didn't get much done - just came up w/ ideas to [can't read writing]
3/11-discussed background ideas on board
3/14-designed background for 1 stack
3/15-Chandima taugh me to put button icons on scaned in pictures
3/16-Looked for history backgrounds - took notes for history of B__ high school
4/6-took notes on recent history - past history compiled information
4/7 -took notes our of N__ Co. News about F__, F__, and B__
4/8-made note cards for history
4/11-Finished all history cards but two - had G1 look at them - waiting on papers from historical society to do other 2 cards
4/12-Filled out note cards w/B4 on animals also looked up some new animals & cleared up two phea [can't read this] sorts w/ fatbits
4/13-watch soil sample person take soil samples
4/21-finished noes of History put one card on History stack
4/25-put all cards on History Stack
4/27-put a background on history stacks finished history
5/5-put movie and 2 stills on history stack
5/9-worked on pup up fields for history - tree and materials donors
5/10-put indians on stacks, finished pop up fields helped Randy do stills
5/11-helped B1 & G1 do stills on animal stack combied some history cards
5/12-colored hypercard & cleared up scans
5/14-proof read plants & made changes finished history completely. B4 and I finished seasonal changes

B4: 5/14-write G2's cards and put a still on her stack. Corrected G3's cards.

G1: 3/15-Chaundema came down and worked with us on our project. Looked at everybody's stacks. Everything is coming along great.
3/16-Worked on stack to ijmprove things a little. Every little bit helps!
4/19-Finished the last parts of the scanning. Helped the others on some of their scanning.
5/4-Decided lots of things. We decided that we need to start to put things together. Things need to be done by next Monday. Time is so short!
5/8-Made three stills for my stack (soils). Still keep on working on perfecting my stack needs last minute adjustments.
5/10-Scanned my landscape of the hill. Put it on to my stack to add a little to it. Tonight we all came back to the school to work on our stacks at night because we need some more tim.e I think that we will need to do this more often!
5/12-Putting final touches on proejct. Previewing everything.
5/16-Something is wrong with my disk have to ask Chaumdima about it. I hope that everything goes OK with it I have worked so hard on it.

KW Interview with 3B at Conference

Would you say that you worked very hard on this project? [assent] And do you usually work very hard at science? Tell me about, can you qualify that hard work, was... there anything good about it, anything bad about it? Did you spend out of school time on it?
B: Yeah, we'd come up on Saturdays...[inaudible]
K: Did you normally do that kind of thing?
Bs: No
K: OK, so you worked harder, and you put more hours in on it but you sort of enjoyed doing that? It sounds like the project kind of captured you a little bit, did it? You guys had a presentation of this, didn't you, to your parents or somebody?
Bs: Awards night, to all the public
K: The whole community could come to Awards night?
Ss: Yeah
K: Whoa! Did you know ...ahead of time?
Ss: no
K: When did you find out?
B: a week or so
K: A week before? Was the project already finished by then?
Ss: yeah, yeah
K: Pardon? It was already done by the time...So when you were putting it together you didn't really have a particular audience in mind to look at it or...
B: Well, we did it mainly for the [inaudible] audience
K: So you did
B: Before we started it we decided what for what audience it was going to be
K: Oh, that's interesting. Did you decide that among yourselves or did your teacher...
B: Our teacher asked us
K: to decide...
B: Yeah
K: OK. When you did your presentation, how did people respond?
B: They were kind of surprised about what you could do with it.

KW interview with 2G, 1B at conference

K: Did you imagine that it was going to be the way that it turned out?
G1: I didn't imagine that it was going to be that hard, I mean because it took a lot of work, it really did
G2: It was time-consuming more than anything
K: OK it took a lot of time. So from your previous experience with HyperCard you thought it was only going to be a matter of typing some stuff in?
G1: Yeah, I thought it was going to take us maybe a couple of weeks to get it done, I didn't think was as big [inaudible]
...
K: I understand from talking with the other group that you guys have worked together as a unit all through school so you didn't have the usual work-as-a-group problems. Did you have any trouble getting any one person to do their share?
G1: Yeah, there's a girl that isn't with us right now, and she moved this past year. Sometimes we had to...Well, T1 pretty much took care of it but ...times ..you know, I mean, she was gone a lot of the school days, and so we would be working on our project and she wasn't there to work on hers, and so sometimes she'd fall behind and then we'd be behind and we'd have to pick up the slack every now and then for her.
K: OK. And in the end you did end up having to complete her part, didn't you?
general: Yeah
K: How did that happen, who decided who was going to do that?
B: Well, we had 2 groups, M___&I finished hers, but still everyone worked on it...
G1: Yeah, because I know M___ and I made the movie on the windmill, we went out and did that. So it was just kinda like everybody finished theirs and ...
G2: inaudible
B: M___ & I finished most of the research and you did...most of the movie and pictures.
Gs: Yeah...

Video, Visit 1

At the end the bell rang, and everyone got up except one boy and one girl. The girls saved her program and left. The boy was still working when the tape ended.

Video, Visit 2

The girl who was learning how to install movies stayed for quite a long time after school working on her stack while T1 and the CC talked about getting still pictures from their movies and showing them from their stacks.

Video, Visit 3

Each student had his or her own separate work, and yet they claimed they all cooperated on all the other parts at one time or another. Upon questioning, they agreed they had never been part of a project that involved so much sustained work over such a long period of time, including before and after school, lunch hours, evenings, and weekends. One of the more difficult problems for the students was that there had been only seven of them, and they had to be extremely responsible to the group for their part of the work; but one student had dropped out of school during the semester, and everyone else had to pick up her work. They were somewhat resentful that she hadn't kept her part of the bargain.
Students and the teacher also expressed their surprise that they were able to get it finished on time, and they agreed they could have spent all year on it instead of part of a semester.

HS-2, Teacher T2

DM Notes on Phone Conversation with T2, After End of Project

Her students had a difficult time with the latitude in deciding what they wanted to do and how to do it, but once they got a chance to do what they were interested in, they didn't want to stop. It took 3 1/2 weeks, until they were putting their projects together, before they really understood what they were doing, and then they wanted to start over now that they understood it better. They had a lot of trouble understanding what HyperCard was all about - they had never done anything like that before. At first they wanted T2 to tell them how to do everything and didn't want to solve problems themselves. Then she would say "I guess I could sit down and figure it out, but there are four other groups I need to help too. It would be better if you would help each other. So they did. There was a lot of peer teaching going on."
They showed their final project at a parents evening, with a few board members and the principal there too. They really never believed there would be a real audience until they sent out the invitations. The parents were impressed, and it was a good experience.

[NOTE: T3 had her students answer questions about the project instead of keeping a journal. They answered questions as a team - the same team that worked on a particular portion of the project. Below are the questions asked. I put number on them so that you can tell what questions the students are answering below.]

1. How did you spend your time and what time was spent on the project?



G2: Time was used in and out of school. Also some time was used during other classes. The content of time was great. A lot of time was spent fixing mistakes.

G5: we spent some time after school on the project...we worked hard.

G8: I worked in class and about five days during my study hall.

G9: We spent very much time on it. We even came in after school and during other classes.

G11: We also stayed after school for about a week, working until five or six o'clock.

B2: We worked on the project everyday during class. I also came in a couple of evenings and worked on it. I worked on it after school when I had time, but T__ couldn't because he had to go to work. I also came to school on Saturday for seven hours to start over.

DM Interview with 2G at Conference

D: Would you say that you worked really hard on this project?
Gs: Yeah
D: Do you think you worked harder on this than on other kinds of projects?
G2: We wanted it perfect.
D: Did you?
G2: Instead of just wanting it over[? slightly inaudible]...we really tried to make it look nice.
G1: ...staying after school.
G2: Yeah, lots of hours.
D: Why do you think you wanted it to look so perfect?
G1: Oh, because it was our project
D: 'cause you got to [inaudible]
G1: We kind of invented it
G2: And you could see where you had messed up or you could fix it
D: You could see your own [inaudible] and show it to everybody...
G2: Yeah..and people would see, it would reflect off of us, what they saw in the presentations and stuff
D: Who were you going to present it to?
G2: We had a presentation to all the parents, we had a night, and we had refreshments, and they all sat, and anyone who wanted to come , mostly parents
...
D: It sounds like everybody had a real investment in it coming out good, and they liked their own part and didn't want somebody to change it
G2: Like you'd see someone else and they'd have something really neat and you'd want to go and find something really neat to have yours...
G1: [inaudible] between groups to see who'd have the better project
...
D: Who do you think cared most about how the project...teachers?
Gs: students

Video, Visit 2

In the third class some students are working off their outline. Shows two girls at one computer, two girls at another, staff helping one of the pairs. Camera then pans room and catches teacher talking intently to a girl about prairie grasses. This scene appears to be after all the classes are one for the day. The girl is the only student left in the room.

Video, Visit 3

This class was very near the end of school and the teacher was collecting books from students as well as gathering their project stacks on the fly from the various file-sharing computers in her room and the adjoining one. In addition, she was trying to get students to hand in the required "good narrative" about their project and how they would evaluate the project and the process. She suggested that they tell how they found their information (students speaks up: We did what you told us!), and then said, "And you did exactly what I told you and nothing more you didn't do anything creative at all," and tried to encourage them to think about what they did. "When you are stretched you grow." This was all said in good humor.
The teacher asked if anyone was interested in planting shrubs next week, and you could hear a few yeses in the background as she went on to explain that every year we plant about 200 shrubs in the 70-acre outdoor classroom.

CC Interview with Teacher

CC: What changes have you seen in the kids, and what do you think caused those changes? changes in terms of study skills and motivation and maybe other things which you don't feel that are too good.
T3: Well, I know now that in the last couple of weeks then when they come to class they get right... started on whatever it is they need to do, at the beginning they would kind of sit around and wait for me to say "ok now you guys need to do this..." I think they've taken more charge....
CC: More control of their learning process... ok. do you find that happening in your regular classes too or?
T3: No.
CC: So they always wait until you come to class and write something on the board and start things off.. ok.

Video, Visit 1

One of the two main events during this class hour is the three girls learning how to develop color fields and buttons in the backgrounds, bringing in a picture as a new background, and getting their pictures to show properly. They work together on this easily and without conflict, asking and giving advice on the aesthetics of the card, with the teacher and a boy making a suggestion or two, but mainly figuring out things by themselves, with help from staff only when it is requested or clearly needed. One girl stays very quiet and in the background. The other two girls switch places to share the computer work. The girls are all very involved in this work and serious about it.

One of the boys asks the staff how to get sound in the movies, and staff asked him how he had done it already. He said he had put the mike up to the speakers. Staff told him how to do it directly. The teacher had to leave, so staff stayed on with the two boys for a few minutes more. They wanted to know how to show the movie from the stack, so staff showed them how to do that.

Video, Visit 2

Eventually the bell rings, but e everyone keeps right on doing whatever they were doing as though they hadn't heard it. The tape runs for another three minutes and they keep on working.

Video, Visit 3

Clearly school was out. Three students (two boys and a girl) met with the teacher as representatives of their groups to go over all the work and make suggestions to get it in its final form. In fact they were mostly appreciating their own and other's work, and it was the teacher raising questions for them to consider spelling, consistency and placement of buttons, fields behind pictures to frame them nicely, linking the stacks through a main menu, listing sources, adding text where there was none in a section. The students were very responsive as T3 led them to think about issues, but they did not initiate the issue on their own, either because they didn't think of them, or because they were hesitant to criticize their own and others' work, or both. For example, when the teacher asked what they thought about those buttons, might they not be a little confusing, the girl said that maybe they should all be the same kind or in the same place (a good suggestion, which she clearly saw on her own once her attention was drawn to the confusingness of the buttons). Also, when asked to check spelling, they eventually used a dictionary (after the teacher said she wasn't sure about one word).

On the other hand, not all of their responses were particularly good ones - when asked if there needed to be some sort of return button to return to the main menu at any time, they unanimously agreed not to put one on every card (said as though either that would be overkill, or too much work), but maybe half way through each stack... The teacher...had to remind them repeatedly to make notes about these suggestions. There was some joking around, teasing, and so on. The teacher said, for example that one boy must have carried his camcorder everywhere with him, and he agreed that he had to carry it (while he worked in the fields) to find the animals he needed for his stack, because he didn't have a lot of time. The students were there willingly and enjoyed themselves, but they did not invest a lot of mental effort.
The teacher said she would like to have this project completed by the end of June, before harvest. One boy says they will be cutting in two weeks. T3 suggests they get together on a Saturday or Sunday afternoon and order a pizza and finish it up. They are enthusiastic about that idea. The storyboard paper on the bulletin board is still entirely blank.

KW Interview with 4B, 2G at Conference

K:Would you say it was really hard work, what you did?
G: In some ways
B: Some of it
B: Took a lot of time
B: Yeah, it wasn't really hard, just a lot of time
...
G: We could branch off on it with any kind of idea we had, and if it didn't turn out OK she didn't care much
K: Yeah. So you were kind of allowed to be free to explore stuff, and you didn't have to come back with some sort of result. If the situation was a dead end that was OK?
G: Some of us woke up at 5:00 over spring break and went out there to film
K: Did you?
B: [inaudible]
G: and then we found out we didn't have any video tape...we forgot the tape [laughs]
B: Oh my God! [general exclamations]
G: like an hour, we were frozen and we got some of the best shots we had!
And then we went back and found out the tape was still in the truck!
K: Oh no! [exclamations]
...
K: Is there any one person here who was really interested in, you know, in the quality of the final product than the rest of you?
Ss: [murmurs, hesitation, J___]
K: Seemed a little like J___?
B: I don't know. I just kinda wanted to make it so it looked good, halfway decent, so we weren't the laughing stock or anything.
[laughter]
K: That's interesting, given that you didn't know whether anybody else was going to see it or anything
B: We kind of had an idea that it'd be shown up here
K: Oh, OK.
G: That's kinda what frightened us for a while.
K: OK, so you did think that others would see it...

Teacher T4 Journal

4/22-Today we looked at each group's project - or what they have done so far and other groups made suggestions. Some were good, constructive comments and others were WHY did you do THAT?

DM Interview with 1B, 1G at Conference
D: Did you put in extra time...[inaudible]
G:[inaudible] after lunch and we'd work on it until class[inaudible]
D: (to B) Did you put in extra time or did you get it done in class?
B: shakes head..just in class

D: Did you actually show your project to somebody else before you came here?
G: We showed them twice
B: To different groups
D: To different students? but not to parents?
G: We showed them to two different groups...G-we showed them to two other groups.
D: You mean you showed your project to this group and vice versa but not to any other students...?
B&G: No [meaning not to anyone outside the class]
...
D: Who do you think cared most about ...this project...teachers or students?
G: both
D: did you care more...[inaudible]
B: [inaudible]
D: [inaudible] had your name on it, the world knew that was yours?
G: [inaudible]

Video, Visit 2

The other girl group worked together in a truly collaborative fashion to pick the color patterns for their part of the project, and took a lot of care and time to get it just right.

DM Interview with Teacher, After Visit 2 (Last Visit for This Group)

D: How on earth did you get 24 of them to be working during the class period on their research or their computers... K: Working in their little groups, 'cause I could take one group and take them out to the library, the art group usually worked in the library, and I could go out and just be with them, and then the research group, I could have them on the other side and the computer group was over by the computers.
D: And you could leave them alone? they would keep working.
K: Mm-hmm

D: Did you force them to make it so beautiful or did they do that on their own. I mean, they really did a lovely job!
K: I must admit I gave them suggestions...It might be a little better if you line this up...They did the basic placement...and we had spent so much time since this was a field-based class and they were using field guides all the time. They had a sense of what a field guide looked like...We had a basic model to work from...
...
D: Did you see any instances that you can think of...of kids seeming to take more responsibility for their own learning when they're trying to put together a project like this [K-oh sure] -or did you have to direct them?
K: I saw some of that
D: Was it in one particular group rather than another? I mean, because of the unusual way you divided them up, that's why I'm asking that question...
K: Probably the research group
D: The research group was mostly girls, too, wasn't it?
D: The girls were the snake lovers
K: The writers
...
D: How about members of a particular group having a sense of duty toward that group, you know, like the research group having to have nine frogs done by Friday, did they all make sure they got their part in
K: Well most of them in, well, I never did much formal monitoring of , kept track on paper...well they kind of gear each other up, and with little reminders from me, you know, I'd say 'Research group, your papers are due, you know, by next Tuesday, '... so it's their responsibility then to get it done.

Video, Visit 2 (Last Visit), DM Talking With Computer Students, 3B

D: Did you guys come in before and after school and during lunch to work on this, or just in class?
B: I came in....

Teacher (T8) Journal

November 94 - Dec. 94
...I have observed over the past 2-3 months that students attitudes toward HyperCard have changed. At the beginning, a few (2 or 3) would go directly to the computer. (We worked on Monday, Tuesday, and Thursday.) Sometimes students would ask "Is this a computer Day or do we get to do our homework?"
By December all but 3 girls would go directly back (sometimes doing 5-10 minutes of homework first ) to work on their stack. They particularly enjoyed doing sound buttons; they brought tapes of their favorite songs to enclude on their own card.

Teacher (T7) Journal

November-Students continue working on their "personal" stacks, some have "caught the fever" and want to come down during study hall time to work or would much prefer to work on HyperCard instead of doing their Student Helper duties for us during Technology class.

MJ Interview with tTeachers After End of Project

T7: Our regular classes are not traditional classes.
MJ: Are not?
T7: They are not. She has learning modules areas set up and the kids are self-directed by notebooks and she acted as a facilitator roles. And I did the same thing in my classroom.
MJ: I see.
T7: Because we believe that students can learn that way and we liked the way of teaching.
MJ: I see.
T7: So the kids were used to learning that way and we were used to teaching that way. So that part was not the adjustment part.
...
T7: I think at times we had higher expectations for the kids sometimes we kind of disappointed. But we had stepped back and realized that it was totally new to them and that they were learning the whole process that wasn't graded. If it has been graded, we felt like, the process and the product might have been different. [loud noise.... unintelligible] I think that is the only area we were disappointed in. By the end of the year they were tired of it. And their attitudes were beginning to show it. And we talked about the spring fever a little bit.
...
T8: They liked to be self-sufficient, they really enjoy it, and T7 does the same thing, they really enjoy...being able to come in and get started on their own. I don't have to wait for everybody to be there. So the way our classrooms are set up, they are more independent. And this project fits together with independence, you know. They are in charge of what they are doing. Once they have general instruction of what to do, they are on their own. So I know they like that aspect of it.
...
MJ: Hard work, or extra time...[reading one of the question categories]
T7: We had....like I had kids coming out of study hall to that wanted to work on it, so they end up spending more time. And we had a couple stayed at the school to work on it then...

Additional Questions to T9 After End of Project

9-3 persistence in their work even when things got frustrating more
9-4 hard work, or extra time on task same
9-5 personal investment in the quality of the final project more
9-6 taking responsibility for their own learning same
9-7 active problem solving same

Did any of these things happen in your project? Describe.

10-2 social skills improved from working in collaboration yes
10-3 coaching or helping other students yes (part of their role assignment)
10-4 individual students showing responsibility toward the group yes

Skills Needed in this Project

*Sorry, Audio files for this segment no longer available.

HS-1, Teacher T1

CC: Telephone Interview with Teacher, 04/30/94

CC: ok. do you think that the technology is the important thing, or the process of doing the research to integrate it within technology? what's more important? it the process or the end product?
T1: yes. the technology is just the tool, the process, of the research and the organizing, is the important thing. what the multimedia does is it allows you to organize it in a different way, it forces you to think about it, you organize it for HyperCard differently that if you would organize for a paper report.
CC: ok.
T1: There's more elements you have to be concerned with like, how does the sound enhance it, how does the color enhance it? and what kind of visual effects, whereas paper and pencil's just all words.
CC: ok. so, you think the kids are learning better skills by using HyperCard than just writing things up in reports?
T1: I think they are, and as we talk about it you know, we talk about, for example, the font, how does the font convey the feeling of this particular stack?
CC: uh-hmmm.
T1: say the font when we are talking about stone posts in our area as we are talking about windmills, and they don't have any are background because we don't have art in the high school, but they have sense about it to realize that for the stone posts, the font we use should be very bold and very solid, whereas the windmill is going to be a little bit fluffier and frillier.
CC: ok.
T1: well, those kinds of things I think are important for them to learn, you know the aesthetics of what they are trying to do.

*Sorry, Audio files for this segment no longer available.

HS-3, Teacher T3

CC: T3 Interview

CC: ok. did you change things after you started? did you start off by doing one thing and did you change things in the middle?
T3: yeah, pretty much, we came up with our initial question and then, kind of veered over a little bit. Yeah we kind of changed things a little bit once we started gathering information, some of the information they got kind of led them down a different path.
CC: so, the scope and sequence is probably dictated by what you find and what kinds of resources you can get your hands on?
T3: right.
CC: you think that's a good thing, or do you think it should be a little more structured?
T3: oh! I think there should be some structure but I mean, regardless of what they do, I guess I view this as, they are learning, but they are also, I mean, as a process maybe they all go through, like you know a job they do, you know or whatever, they are not always going to be able to it exactly how they envisioned they could. I think there has to be some structure but then, I think it's good for them to run into dead ends have to change their way of thinking a little bit, adapt a little bit.
CC: ok, that's good... so these are skill you don't learn when you are writing papers, right?
T3: yeah! I think so, and they get to learn other skills like interviewing.
CC: uh-hmmm. ok.
T3: like we went to the courthouse and talked to the registrar of deeds and some of them thought that was really neat, and they would have liked to stay longer, and looked other things up..like where they live or...

Table 1

Table 1a.

Table 2.

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